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“Create Ideal Men”

Srila Prabhupada: The defect of the Western countries is that practically there is no social structure. The father and mother divorce, and the children become aimless. In most cases this is the defect.

Director: That happens. Yes.

Srila Prabhupada: I have seen this pattern with many of my students. Their whole family becomes disrupted, because the father and mother—even in old age—divorce. I have seen the mother of one of my students. His father was a very good businessman. Very nice family, with a good income. All of a sudden, the father and mother disagreed about something and got a divorce. The sons were thrown into confusion; the daughters were thrown into confusion.

Director: That’s the kind of cases we deal with.

Srila Prabhupada: The father married again, and the mother married again. They were not happy, and also, the business closed. So by this one instance I can understand how, in the Western countries, people have broken away from the traditional social structure. Of course, the root cause is godlessness. That is the root cause.

Director: And now divorce is getting easier, too. Isn’t it?

Srila Prabhupada: That is a very dangerous law—to allow divorce. Divorce should not be allowed. Even if there is some disagreement between husband and wife, it should be ignored. The great political strategist Canakya Pandita says, dampatye kalahe caiva bahvarambhe laghu kriya: “The husband and wife’s quarrel should not be taken very seriously.” Further, aja yuddhe: “A marital fight is just like a fight between two goats.” The goats may be fighting very spiritedly, but if you say “Hut!” they will go away. Similarly, the fight between husband and wife should not be taken very seriously. Let them fight for some time; they will stop automatically. But now when the husband and wife fight, each goes to a lawyer, and the lawyers give encouragement. “Yes, let us go to the divorce court.” This is going on.

So the first defect of modern society is the law allowing divorce. Another defect: there is no method for training a man to become first-class. That method is there in the Vedic civilization. Now, of course, that method is also abolished, due to the degradation of this modern age.

Formerly, though, society was divided into four classes—brahmanas, kshatriyas, vaishyas, shudras: advisors, administrators, merchants, and workers. The brahmanas were first-class men—ideal. But in today’s society there is no ideal man. Society should have some living example, so that people can see, “Oh, here is an ideal man.” And the ideal man is described here in our Bhagavad-gita. Any man can be trained. And if even just one percent of the people become ideal, the remaining ninety-nine percent will see and follow. But now there are no ideal men. That is the defect.

So we are training people to become ideal men. That is the purpose of this movement. And in practical terms, you can see what our students were in their previous life and what they are now. Therefore, the government should establish an institution to create ideal men. We can help.

Director: But becoming an ideal man would be very difficult for the grown men who come to us, although it would be possible for the kids who come.

Srila Prabhupada: No, even the grown men can live according to these spiritual principles, just as my disciples are living. My disciples have not been with me since childhood; when they met me, they were already grown men. They are coming from the same group. But they are now saintly. It is simply a matter of training them.

The thing is, at present I have no facility. Whatever I have done has been by personal endeavor and their cooperation. None of your Western governments has helped me, nor did my government help me, although we are struggling to make a class of men ideal. Of course, they appreciate, but they do not give us any practical support.

For instance, we have purchased this house by our endeavor, with great difficulty, because we have no income. I write my books; then we sell and get some income. So somehow or other, we expand, but no government is helping us. Rather, they are facilitating brothels and liquor shops.

At least, formerly in India there was no drinking propaganda. Now the government is even making that. They are opening wine shops. In India, even in the British period, drinking was very, very restricted. Very, very restricted. First of all, in Indian society if anyone drank, he was rejected; he was not regarded as a gentleman. A drunkard was never respected.

Similarly, meat-eaters. A meat-eater was considered a third- class man. In our childhood we saw that when people learned to eat meat, they did it very secretly, not within their own home. Instead, they ate meat far away from home, with someone else doing the cooking. It was considered very abominable to eat meat or to drink.

As for illicit sex, that also was very rare. Young women were kept strictly under the supervision of parents. The father would see that his daughter did not mix with any boy. If a girl were to go out at night and not come back, then her life would be finished—nobody would marry her. So the father had to keep his daughter with great care. And he was very, very anxious to find a suitable boy to whom he could hand his daughter over for marriage. We saw all this in our childhood. But now these nice social customs are slackened. Jawaharlal Nehru, our late prime minister, introduced the divorce law, and now Indian society is in a chaotic condition.

Director: What can you do if society wants divorce? Society wants it that way.

Srila Prabhupada: “Society wants it.” That’s like your child wants to go to hell—but it is not your duty as his father to allow him to go to hell.

“Society wants it.” Society does not know the proper standard of spiritual behavior, nor does the government know how to uplift people. The government does not know. For all the government knows, the animals and we human beings are the same. Simply, the animals loiter naked, and we are nicely dressed—that’s all. Civilization finished. I remain an animal, but my advancement is that I am very nicely dressed. That is the standard now.

But our Vedic civilization is not like that. The two-legged animal must change his consciousness. He must be trained up as a human being.

[To a disciple:] Bhagavad-gita lists the qualities of the first-class man. You can read them.

Disciple: Samo damas tapah shaucam kshantir arjavam eva ca / jnanam vijnanam astikyam brahma-karma svabhava-jam: “Peacefulness, self-control, austerity, purity, tolerance, honesty, knowledge, wisdom, and religiousness—these are the natural qualities by which the brahmanas work.”

Srila Prabhupada: So people should be trained according to these spiritual principles. The way to immediately solve all society’s problems is to start an institution for training the four natural classes of men. Begin it. If there is no training, how can you expect nice citizens? If you allow a child to smoke from the very beginning and to commit all kinds of other sinful activities, how can you expect him to be a nice gentleman when he is grown up? It is not possible.

Creating ideal men is possible through this Krishna consciousness movement. As you have said, older men may not be so much inclined to come and join. But if we train men from their childhood, then everything is possible. It is not that all men can be trained up spiritually. But if even a small percentage of ideal men are in society, at least people will think, “Oh, here is the ideal.”

But now there is no such facility. We are training our students, but sometimes people laugh: “What is this nonsense?” They criticize. These leaders of society do not encourage us. Yesterday I was talking with a priest, and about illicit sex he said, “What is the wrong there? It is a great pleasure.”

We are training our students according to actual spiritual principles, and so we are proclaiming that illicit sex is sinful. In fact, our first condition is that one must give up these four things: illicit sex, meat-eating, intoxication, and gambling. This is my first condition before accepting people as my students. So they agree and they follow.

Director: But not all the people we encounter will do that.

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, they will do that, if a regular institution runs on in this way—with all facility.

Advice to the United Nations

Srila Prabhupada: The social body should have a class of men who act as the brain and guide everyone so that everyone can become happy. That is the purpose of our movement.

Mr. Hennis: That’s a valid point, because it has always been affirmed in every society that there is a need for a priestly class or a class of philosophical leaders.

Srila Prabhupada: But now the so-called priestly class are amending the Biblical injunctions according to their whims. For instance, the Bible enjoins, “Thou shalt not kill.” But the priestly class is like the other classes—sanctioning slaughterhouses. So how can they guide?

Mr. Hennis: But the animal world is entirely composed of beings who eat one another. I suppose that the justification that people have for maintaining slaughterhouses is that it is just a cleaner way of killing than for a lion to jump on the back of an antelope.

Srila Prabhupada: But as a human being you should have discrimination. You should be guided by your brain, and society should be guided by the “brain class” of priestly, thoughtful men. Nature has given human beings the fruits, the vegetables, the grains, the milk, which all have great nutritional value, and human beings should be satisfied with these wholesome foods. Why should they maintain slaughterhouses? And how can they think they will be happy by being sinful, by not following God’s commandments? This means society has no brain.

Mr. Hennis: My organization isn’t directly concerned with giving people brains.

Srila Prabhupada: Your organization may not be directly concerned. But if human society is brainless, then no matter how much you may try to organize, society can never become happy. That is my point.

Mr. Hennis: My organization is concerned with taking away the obstacles that prevent people from attaining a proper brain. One of the obstacles is just plain poverty.

Srila Prabhupada: No. The main thing is, society must learn to discriminate between pious and sinful activities. Human beings must engage in pious activities, not sinful activities. Otherwise, they have no brain. They are no better than animals. And from the moral point of view, do you like sending your mother to the slaughterhouse? You are drinking the milk of the cow—so she is your mother—and after that you are sending her to the slaughterhouse. That is why we ask. Where is society’s brain?

Mr. Hennis: Of course, when you speak of the distinctions that are made between pious activities and sinful activities—

Srila Prabhupada: Today practically no one is making this distinction. We are making it, and we have introduced these ideas by establishing farm communities and protecting our cows. And our cows are winning awards for giving the most milk, because they are so jubilant. They know, “These people will not kill me.” They know it, so they are very happy. Nor do we kill their calves. At other farms, soon after the cow gives birth to a calf, they pull her calf away for slaughter. You see? This means society has no brain. You may create hundreds of organizations, but society will never be happy. That is the verdict.

Mr. Hennis: Well, we can’t be accused of engaging in sinful activities when we don’t think what we are doing is sinful.

Srila Prabhupada [Laughing]: Oh? You don’t think you can be accused of breaking the state law—just because you don’t know what the state law is? The point is, if your priestly class have no knowledge of what is sinful, they may instruct you, “Don’t do anything sinful”—but what good is that? You must have a priestly class who know what is sinful, so that they can teach you. And then you must give your sinful activities up. When these young people came to me, I told them, “Flesh-eating, illicit sex, gambling, and intoxication—these things are sinful. You must give them up.” If we do not give up these sinful activities, nature punishes us. So we must know the laws of nature, what nature wants. At the very least, nature wants that we human beings stop our sinful activities. If we do not, then we must be punished.

Mr. Hennis: We are just trying to give people a fair share of the material things of life: proper wages, decent homes, decent opportunities for leisure.

Srila Prabhupada: That is all right, but people must know what is sinful and what is pious.

Mr. Hennis: Yes, but I don’t think you can properly expect to indoctrinate people. At least, you can’t expect an international organization to indoctrinate people.

Srila Prabhupada: As an international organization for peace and well-being, the United Nations should maintain a class of men who can act as society’s brain. Then everything will be all right. Simply legs and hands working without any direction, without any brain—that is not very good. The United Nations was organized for the total benefit of human society, but it has no department that can actually be called the brain organization.

Mr. Hennis: That’s true. That’s true. They are servants of the membership, servants of the various states of the world. We are only the servants of these people. What we try and do is let them get together and help them understand their problems.

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, help them understand. At the very least, help them understand what they should do and what they should not do. At least do this much.

Mr. Hennis: This we do try to do to the extent that it is possible for the secretariat to shape and evolve a philosophy. We try to do it. But of course, we can’t adopt a completely radical approach. We do what we can, in the manner of a good servant and the manner of a good steward, to try and hope the leaders are on the right path and the right direction.

Srila Prabhupada: If society does not know what is sinful and what is pious, it is all useless. If your body has no brain, then your body is dead. And if the social body has no brain, then it is dead.

Colleges for curing the Social Body

This exchange between His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada and some of his disciples took place in Vrindavana, India, during March of 1974.

Srila Prabhupada: In this age the politicians’ business will be to exploit the poor citizens, and the citizens will be embarrassed and harassed so much. On one side there will be insufficient rain and therefore scarcity of food, and on the other side there will be excessive taxation by the government. In this way the people will be so much harassed that they will give up their homes and go to the forest.

Atreya Rishi dasa: Nowadays the government simply collects money and does nothing.

Srila Prabhupada: The government’s duty is to see that every person is employed according to his capacity. There should be no unemployment—that is a very dangerous situation in society. But the government has drawn people off the land and into the cities. They have made the consideration, “What is the use of so many people working on the land? Instead we can kill animals and eat them.” It’s all very easy—because they don’t care about the law of karma, the inevitable results of sinful activities. “If we can eat the cows, why should we take so much trouble to till the land?” This is going on all over the world.

Atreya Rishi dasa: Yes, the farmers’ sons are giving up farming and going to the city.

Srila Prabhupada: You know this nonsense of “topless, bottomless”? The leaders want that. They want the hotels to pick up college girls and let them be enjoyed by the guests. All over the world the whole population is becoming polluted. So how can people expect good government? Some of the people will take charge of the government, but they are polluted. So wherever we have a Hare Krishna center we should immediately establish. a college for training people—first, according to their natural talents (intellectual, administrative, productive, and laboring). And everyone will be elevated to spiritual awareness by performing the spiritual activities we prescribe—chanting the Hare Krishna mantra, hearing the science of self-realization from Bhagavad- gita, and doing everything as an offering to Krishna. Everyone’s life will become devotional service to the Supreme Lord.

At the same time, for the management of practical affairs we have to organize and train the different social divisions, because there are different kinds of brains. Those who have very intellectual brains should become brahmanas—priests, teachers, advisors. Those who are fit for management and protection of others should become kshatriyas, administrators and military men. Those who are fit for producing food and taking care of the cows should become vaishyas, mercantile men. And those who can assist the others and take up trades and crafts should be shudras, workingmen.

In the social body, just as in your own body, there must be divisions of work. If everyone wants to be the brain (the intellectuals) or the arms (the administrators), then who is going to act as the belly (the farmers) or the legs (the workingmen)? Every kind of occupation is needed. The brain is needed; the arms are needed; the belly is needed; the legs are needed. So you will have to make the social body organized. You have to help people understand the Supreme Lord’s natural social divisions: some people will work as the brain, others as the arms, others as the belly, and still others as the legs. The main aim is to keep the social body perfectly fit.

You must make sure that everyone can engage in the kind of occupation he is suited for. That is important. The thing is, every kind of work can be devotional service to the Lord—the main point is to see that people are engaged in that spirit in their natural work. For instance, when you are walking, your brain is working—“Go this way; go that way; a car is coming”—and your brain says to your legs, “Come to this side.” Now, the work of the brain and the work of the legs are different, but the central point is one—to get you safely across the street. Similarly, the central point of the social body should be one—everyone should help in serving Krishna.

Satsvarupa dasa Goswami: Will this kind of college be for the general public?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, for anyone. For instance, an engineering college is open for everyone; the only requirement is that people must be ready to take up the training. This is our most important program now, because people all over the world have been misguided by these so=called leaders. Children can attend a Krishna conscious primary school, and then, when they are grown up, they can attend a Krishna conscious college for further development in their occupational work and their devotional life.

Atreya Rishi dasa: Will we teach business, also?

Srila Prabhupada: Not this modern business—no. That is rascaldom. “Business” means that you produce enough grain and other crops so that you can eat sumptuously and distribute to everyone—men and animals (especially the cows)—so that they will become stout and strong. That way the cows can supply milk and the human community can work hard, without suffering from disease. We are not going to open mills and factories. No.

Yadubara dasa: Srila Prabhupada, what class do the arts and crafts come under? In our society today artists and musicians are accepted as philosophers.

Srila Prabhupada: No, an artist is a workingman. At the present moment your colleges and universities are giving too much stress on the arts and crafts. Therefore the whole population is workingmen. No real philosophers, no wisdom. That is the difficulty. Everyone is being drawn by the attraction of getting a high salary. They take a so-called technical or scientific education and end up working in a factory. Of course, they won’t work in the field to produce crops. Such people are not philosophers. A philosopher is one who is searching out the Absolute Truth.

In your Western countries the rascals are writing about the philosophy of sex, which is known to the dog. This kind of philosophy can be appreciated by rascals, but we do not appreciate it. Someone who is searching after the Absolute Truth—he is a philosopher. Not this rascal Freud—elaborating on how to have sex. In the Western countries the people have all become low-class, and Freud has become their philosopher. “In the jungle, the jackal becomes the king.” That’s all.

What is the actual knowledge in this so-called Western philosophy? The whole Western world is struggling along for industry, for making money—“Eat, drink, and be merry.” wine and women. That’s all. They are less than low class. This is the first time the attempt is being made to make them human beings. Don’t mind that I am using very strong words—it is a fact. They are animals, two-legged animals. Rejected men. Vedic civilization rejects them as the lowest of the low. But they can be reclaimed.

Westerners can be reclaimed, just as you Westerners—my students—have been reclaimed. Although you come from the lowest situation, by training you are becoming more than brahmanas. There is no bar to anyone. But unfortunately, these rascals do not agree to accept this opportunity. As soon as you say, “No more illicit sex:” “no more meat-eating,” they become angry. Rascals and fools. As soon as you give them good lessons—education—they become angry. If you give a snake nice milk and banana, the result is that he will simply increase his poison. But somehow, by Krishna’s grace, you are becoming trained. You become trained and revise the whole pattern of Western civilization, especially in America. Then a new chapter will come in. This is the program. Therefore Krishna conscious colleges are required.

Contending with Crime and Conflict

Srila Prabhupada: Actually, I’ve seen in New York that in some quarters, it is so nasty. Disaster. So many storefronts and houses lying vacant. Just after my arrival there. I would sometimes walk to see various parts of the city. Hellish condition. People said it was risky, but [laughing] I did not know that it was risky.

One electrician who was my friend said. “Oh, Swamiji, you are going to that quarter? It is not for you. Don’t.”

“Oh, I do not care. What have I got that they could take from me?”

So I was going here and there in New York City. So many nasty quarters. London, also. So many houses vacant.

Disciple: Srila Prabhupada, some say there is more chance of being killed in New York City than in the jungle. Violent criminals are roaming the neighborhoods to rob and rape, because they know that very often, modern society isn’t going to do much to stop them. These thugs can literally get away with murder.

Srila Prabhupada: Yes. People warned me not to go to Central Park in the evening. They said at night nobody goes there.

Disciple: That’s quite true, Srila Prabhupada. At night ordinary people are afraid to go there. They have to stay inside, behind locked doors. Nobody can go to the park. Except the muggers and killers. They practically own the place.

Srila Prabhupada: Such an important park in such an important city, and no one can go there.

Disciple: Srila Prabhupada, it seems people are realizing how bad this modern civilization is. But is there anything this civilization has done that’s good—even if just by accident? People are hoping against hope. because their civilization is so bad.

Srila Prabhupada: Yes. That is why they support this “accident” theory of the universe. Because ordinarily in their civilization, there is no good. There is no possibility of good. But some good may come by accident, that’s all. Otherwise, jagato ‘hitah: world destruction—in their civilization, there is only fault.

But accidentally, good sometimes comes. Accidentally, this Krishna consciousness movement came here [laughing], although it was already going on in India. Nobody here called for Krishna consciousness—the scientists. the politicians. But as if by accident it came. As if by accident they got this benefit. They cannot explain the workings of God: therefore, they take everything as an accident.

[To disciple:] Go on reading.

Disciple [reading from Bhagavad- gita 16.9]: “The demoniac are engaged in activities that will lead the world to destruction. The Lord states here that they are less intelligent The materialists, who have no concept of God, think that they are advancing. But according to Bhagavad-gita, they are unintelligent and devoid of all sense. They try to enjoy this material world to the utmost limit and therefore always engage in inventing something for sense gratification. Such materialistic inventions are considered to be advancement of human civilization, but the result is that people grow more and more violent and more and more cruel—cruel to animals and cruel to other human beings. They have no idea how to behave toward one another. Animal killing is very prominent amongst demoniac people. Such people are considered the enemies of the world, because ultimately they will invent or create something which will bring destruction to all. Indirectly, this verse anticipates the invention of nuclear weapons, of which the whole world is today very proud. At any moment war may take place, and these atomic weapons may create havoc. Such things are created solely for the destruction of the world, and this is indicated here. Due to godlessness, such weapons are invented in human society; they are not meant for the peace and prosperity of the world.”

Srila Prabhupada: Now discuss.

Disciple: If we look back over this century, Srila Prabhupada, we can’t find many years of peace. The Russo-Japanese War, the First World War, the Second World War. the Korean War, the Vietnam War, and hundreds of what they call “low-intensity conflicts.” But always some kind of war going on. Whether in the Middle East or Latin America or Africa, people are always fighting over land and industrial resources. It seems some kind of war always has to be going on.

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, always some war. “Cold war” or “hot war,” as they say. When there is the fire of physical combat that is a hot war. And when there are diplomacy and politics, that is a cold war. So war is going on. Sometimes it is hot; sometimes it is cold. There is no peace.

Disciple: And what’s more, Srila Prabhupada, we even see that among the so-called God conscious communities, still there are such horrible activities going on. Fighting.

Srila Prabhupada: No. no. we don’t say that all fighting has to stop. We are drawing a distinction between fighting by demons and fighting by demigods. If you are a demon and you come to attack me. then I must defend myself. What can I do?

If you start a war, you are a demon. Shall I decline from fighting you? “No, no. I am a demigod—I shall not fight. You can kill me.” Is that intelligent? I’ll have to fight

But war starts by the instigation of the demoniac. The Kurukshetra war—it was not started by Arjuna. It was started by Duryodhana.

(To be continued.)

Varnashrama in Plato, Gandhi, Bhaktivinoda, and Prabhupada

Thinkers both inside and outside the Vedic culture recognize the natural principles underlying the Vedic social system.

In a recent conversation with a well-to-do Hindu gentleman in New York City, I happened to mention that I was twice- initiated—a brahmana priest who regularly chanted the confidential Gayatri mantra and sometimes officiated at Vedic ceremonies. He was taken aback.

“How is that possible?” he asked. “You’re not born Indian or to brahmana parents.”

My Hindu friend—his name, I soon came to learn, was Amarnath—obviously believed that brahmanahood is related to birthright, a common misconception in India. Wanting to set things straight, I decided to fill him in on the ancient varnashrama system as it was originally espoused in Vedic texts, millennia ago. This system is described in the earliest portions of the Vedic literature (Rig Veda 10.90.12), where the various classes of society are compared to the human body. One part may be positioned higher than the other, but all parts are necessary for the body’s proper functioning. Varnashrama is further delineated in the Vishnu Purana (3.8.9) and in Bhagavad-gita (4.13), where it is described as a natural component of any well-established society.

Briey, the varnashrama system comprises four basic material occupations or duties (varnas) and four spiritual stages (ashramas). The varnas are (1) brahmanas (intellectuals and priests), (2) kshatriyas (warriors and administrators), (3) vaishyas (farmers and business people), and (4) shudras (manual laborers and general assistants). Most people exhibit qualities that reflect an overlapping of these categories, but one occupational inclination will eventually predominate.

The four spiritual stages (ashramas) are (1) brahmacarya (celibate student life), (2) grihastha (married life), (3) vanaprastha (retired life), and (4) sannyasa (renunciation and complete dedication to the Absolute). But we will not concern ourselves in this short article with these spiritual stages of life, both because of limited space and because it was not the subject of the discussion between Amarnath and I.

Birthright Or Birth-Wrong?

I pointed out to Amarnath that Vedic culture takes into account the psychophysical nature of individuals before assigning a place for them in the varnashrama system. Unfortunately, this system has devolved into the modern-day caste system, where people are classified according to birth. If one is born into a brahmana family, for example, one is automatically considered a brahmana, regardless of qualifications. This superficial reading of varna has led to the jati system, with its innumerable sub-castes and variations on the original four varnas. This system has caused considerable confusion, civil strife, and social unrest in Indian society.

In the early 1970s, His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, the founder and spiritual preceptor of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness, discussed this topic with a prominent Indologist in Moscow:

Prof. Kotovsky: According to the scriptures—the Puranas, etc.—every member of one of these four classes of varnas has to be born within it.

Srila Prabhupada: No, no, no, no.

Prof. Kotovsky: That is the foundation of all the varnas.

Srila Prabhupada: You have spoken incorrectly. With great respect I beg to submit that you are not speaking correctly. In the Bhagavad-gita [4.13] it is stated, chatur-varnyam maya srishtam guna-karma-vibhagashah: “These four orders of brahmanas, kshatriyas, vaishyas, and shudras were created by Me according to quality and work.” There is no mention of birth.

Prof. Kotovsky: I agree with you that this is the addition of later brahmanas who tried to perpetuate these qualities.

Srila Prabhupada: That has killed the Indian culture.

The Varna System According To Gandhi

The varnashrama system emphasizes “quality and work,” not birth. People t into particular categories according to their qualifications, not the families they were born into. While birth may point one in a particular direction or help in other ways, it is never the sole factor in determining one’s lifelong occupation. For example, birth in a judge’s family may afford one a good education and provide one’s vocational inclination early in life, but it doesn’t guarantee judgeship. Again, this “quality and work” criterion in relation to varna is clear from the Gita itself, though few modern Indians are aware of this.

Amarnath, for instance, insisted that while ancient Vedic texts, and thus Prabhupada, as a modern representative of these texts, may endorse the idea that varna is about quality and work, “modern Hinduism,” as he called it, has another story to tell. He pointed out that most Indians today say that varna refers to birthright. We both wondered aloud: What, if anything, do they base this on? Even Gandhi, considered by many to be the father of “modern Hinduism,” himself totes the “quality and work” line:

Varna is generally determined by birth, but can be retained only by observing its obligations. One born of Brahmana parents will be called a Brahmana, but if his life fails to reveal the attributes of a Brahmana when he comes of age, he cannot be called a Brahmana. He will have fallen from Brahmanahood. On the other hand, one who is born not a Brahmana but reveals in his conduct the attributes of a Brahmana will be regarded as a Brahmana.

A Few Words From Bhaktivinoda Thakura

Social stratification occurs naturally, and it cannot be dictated by birthright. Bhaktivinoda Thakura (1838-1914), a great scholar and saint in the Krishna conscious tradition, observes how the varna system naturally occurs in all societies:

When we consider the modern societies of Europe, whatever beauty exists in these societies depends upon the natural varnashrama that exists within them. In Europe, those who have the nature of traders are fond of trading and thereby advance themselves by trade. Those who have the nature of kshatriyas adopt the military life, and those who have the nature of shudras love doing menial service.*

But Bhaktivinoda is critical of the prevailing caste system, specically because it points to birth as the selective criterion of one’s varna.* He writes that the original varna system was pure and based on scientific (vaijnanika) principles.* He further writes that from the time of the Mahabharata (roughly five thousand years ago) the system had become corrupt and deviated from its original purpose, that is, to help people gradually develop love of God. Bhaktivinoda called the original system, which centered on spiritual principles, daivi-varnashrama (divine varnashrama)—a far cry, he says, from the current-day caste system.*

As for the societies of the Western world, while Bhaktivinoda recognizes a natural varna system within these societies, he stops short of calling them scientific (vaijnanika) varnashrama: “Though the nations of Europe follow the varna system to some extent, it is not scientific… . In Europe, and, for that matter, in all countries except India, it is the nonscientic varna system that guides them.”* Bhaktivinoda is here expressing his appreciation for the system as it is elucidated in Vedic texts, which elaborate on specific principles for determining the part of society in which a particular individual may belong.

Briey, Bhaktivinoda summarizes the Vedic perspective:

  1. Varna should be determined by studying the nature of a child after examining a child’s associations and tendency toward learning during childhood.
  2. At the time of selecting varna there should also be some consideration of the varna of the mother and the father.
  3. Varna should be determined, at the time of education, by the family priest, father, respectable seniors, and spiritual preceptor.
  4. In case of dispute, there should be a two-year trial period and a review committee to examine the case after that time.

Bhaktivinoda goes on to write of an unscrupulous class of brahmanas and kshatriyas who, to establish authority over others, rewrote books like the Manu- samhita and other dharma-shastras so that these respected texts appear to endorse birthright as a preeminent qualication for brahmanahood. This, he writes, contributed to the fall of a once glorious society in the Indian world.

The Varna System According To Plato

The Greek philosopher Plato—though apparently unaware of Vedic texts—recognized social divisions that are strikingly similar to those of the varna system. In his Republic,he argues that social classes correspond to a hierarchy of personality types. The class predominated by the philosophical intellect, he says, is the highest, after that come those dominated by the emotions, and finally we find those in whom “the appetites” (sensual desires) predominate. Further, says Plato, one finds that society is naturally divided in a similar way. On top are the philosopher- kings, who rule; below them are the warriors, whom he refers to as “auxiliaries,” since they assist the king; and finally we have the merchants and workers, whom Plato combines into one distinct category.

He compares rulers to gold, auxiliaries to silver, and those in the third class to brass and iron. According to Plato, golden parents will tend to have golden children, as silver parents will naturally have silver children, and so on. But sometimes, he admits, golden parents may have silver, brass, or iron children, and the reverse is also true. When this occurs, says Plato, one must be flexible enough to acknowledge that a golden child born to an iron parent, for example, is indeed golden—his birthright should be disregarded in favor of his natural quality.*

Prabhupada’s teachings on this point concur with Plato’s. Both say that birth is not the sole criterion but can afford one a better chance in a particular area of endeavor. Prabhupada says: “It is not that one automatically becomes a brahmana because he is born in a brahmana family. Rather, he has a better chance of being trained as a brahmana if his father is a brahmana, just as one has a better chance of being trained as a musician or a cobbler if those are his father’s occupations. However, it is not that a cobbler cannot become a brahmana. If he acquires the qualifications, he should be considered a brahmana.”

All Varnas For Krishna

Amarnath accepted the point: Vedic texts and their modern- day representatives, like Bhaktivinoda Thakura and Srila Prabhupada, endorse the varna system as natural and beneficial, and as an asset in developing love for God. Further, Gandhi and Plato accept the basic premises of the varna system—even down to the fact that it should be based on inherent quality and natural inclination rather than family status and birthright. Still, we agreed, being born in a particular family may help because if one is educated from birth in the duties of a specific occupation, then one will more likely develop expertise in that field.

As we reviewed one of the other central points of our discussion, Amarnath was disturbed, but he had to admit that it rang true: In the present epoch of world history (Kali, the age of quarrel and hypocrisy), the actual varna system has degraded into what is now known as the caste system, so much a part of modern India. As noted, this is because brahmanas and kshatriyas wanted to maintain their status without developing the necessary education and qualifications to legitimately do so. They deceptively emphasized birthright and powerfully enforced their position among the common people, creating the oppressive atmosphere now associated with the Indian social system.

“What to do?” Amarnath asked.

In response, I presented the basic message of the Krishna consciousness movement: By proper work, according to one’s inclination, one can gradually advance in one’s pursuit of God. Anyone properly engaged can rise to the level of a brahmana and, further, to that of a Vaishnava,or a pure devotee of Krishna. Vaishnavas both embrace and transcend the varna system. They engage their God-given talents in Krishna’s service—this is the essence of the varna system—but accept all classes equally, for all are directing their endeavors in the service of Krishna. This, as Bhaktivinoda tells us, is the daivi,or divine, varna system.

Prabhupada referred to a story from the Mahabharata known as “the enchanted pool.” King Yudhishthira was once called upon to answer questions before being allowed to drink deeply from a pool of beautiful, clear water. One of the questions was “What makes a true brahmana? Is it birth, learning, or good conduct?” Yudhishthira replied, “Birth and superior learning do not make one a brahmana. Good conduct alone does.” Thus, by action anyone can rise to a higher spiritual level. In this context, birthright is never mentioned, and is merely a peripheral consideration.

Amarnath was convinced.

“But how can we convince others?” he asked. “Get them to read Srila Prabhupada’s books,” I answered. “There one finds the essence of all Vedic knowledge, as well as the most valuable insights of thinkers like Gandhi and Plato.”

Increasing Population: No Problem

Srila Prabhupada: Now India is faced with so many problems on account of imitating Western civilization.

Guest: Not simply because of the increased population?

Srila Prabhupada: There is no question of increased population. This idea, I say always, is foolishness.

Guest: Foolishness?

Srila Prabhupada: The birds and beasts are also increasing their population. Who is giving their food? There are 8,400,000 species of life. Out of that, 8,000,000 species are other than human beings, and 400,000 species are human beings. Out of that, the civilized persons are very few. And all the problems are in the so-called civilized population.

We know that God is the original father. He is supplying maintenance for everyone. If there is increase of population, God has enough resources to feed them. It is not a problem of increasing population but of demonic civilization.

Journalist: I was going to ask you about that—civilization.

Srila Prabhupada: The demonic civilization—not increasing population—is creating the problem. So far as I have studied, in America, in Africa, and in Australia there is so much vacant space that if the present population of the world were increased ten times there would still be enough food.

Journalist: You think there’s enough food?

Srila Prabhupada: There are enough provisions. But we have made artificial divisions. “This is America.” The Americans went from Europe and illegally occupied America. Now they won’t allow anyone to come there. Similarly, the Australians won’t allow anyone to come there. The same with New Zealand, Africa. Why? Our philosophy is that everything belongs to God and we are all sons of God. Everyone has got the right to live at the cost of God.

Journalist: But the values of Western civilization have …

Srila Prabhupada: Western civilization created the artificial idea that “this is Africa, this is America, this is Europe.”

Journalist: Therefore that has made living as children of God impossible.

Srila Prabhupada: Yes. Because the one son of God is not allowing the other son to come in. He hasn’t got the right to forbid. Say your father has ten sons. So all the ten sons have the right to use the property of the father. That is the law. Similarly, all the living entities—not only human beings but birds, animals—all of them have the right to use the property of God. This is called spiritual, or transcendental, communism.

According to Vedic civilization, a householder has to see that even a lizard in the room has his food. A householder would stand on the street, and before taking his food, he would say loudly, “If anyone is hungry, please come. I have food.” And if there is no response, then he takes.

Journalist: That’s a very difficult doctrine for many people in civilization.

Srila Prabhupada: But that is real civilization. In animal civilization, as soon as one dog comes, another dog barks, “Yow! Yow! Yow! Why are you coming?” Just like here, and everywhere, the immigration department is asking, “Oh, how long will you stay?” Why should they ask that? A human being is coming. In Vedic civilization, even if an enemy comes to your home you receive him with such friendliness that he forgets that you are his enemy.

Journalist: But it must be very difficult for you to preach these values.

Srila Prabhupada: It is difficult because this civilization is demonic. India welcomed everyone, but the result was they were occupied. Your English people were welcomed. Lord Clive was welcomed, but he intrigued to occupy India. And his statue is worshiped here in London. But what was his credit? He made an intrigue—he illegally entered India and made an occupation. That is Western civilization.

Journalist: That’s really what I was going to ask. You must find life very difficult preaching values of brotherhood in present-day society.

Srila Prabhupada: Brotherhood is natural. In a family of ten sons, naturally they are brothers. But one son is intriguing how to take the whole property. That is going on. That is demonic.

Journalist: How do you stop that?

Srila Prabhupada: By Krishna consciousness. As soon as you are educated that God is one—the Father is one—and we are all sons, then the whole solution is made.

Lesson Seven: Vedic Society

The goal of Vedic society is to bring people closer to God. Attachment to God and attachment to matter are diametrically opposed. The more people are attracted to material life, the less they will be inclined to spiritual life, and vice versa. Therefore the varnashrama system stresses progressive detachment from material enjoyment

This does not mean that people in Vedic society were deprived of enjoyment. They were restricted for their own benefit from the types of sense gratification that cause suffering and continuous bondage in the cycle of birth, old age, disease, and death. And they were encouraged to enjoy in a more refined way, in accordance with religious principles. This type of pleasure is much more enjoyable and conducive to health and well-being, and it elevates one to higher consciousness and spiritual awareness, instead of degrading one to lower forms of life.

The greatest attachment in the material world is due to sexual pleasure, described in the Srimad-Bhagavatam as a tight knot binding one to this material world. Sexual activity that ignores religious principles increases one’s desire to stay in the material world and decreases one’s spiritual intelligence. Therefore in Vedic society sex was limited to marriage, and it was for procreation only.

Now let us analyze the functions of the four ashramas:


The brahmachari ashrama is student life, the first quarter of a man’s life. Education in Vedic society did not consist of mere accumulation of data—facts, figures, equations, dates, formulas, and so on. Neither did it consist of speculative attempts to explain the world in terms of big bangs and primordial soups. Vedic education was intrinsically spiritual. It taught the student practical knowledge about using the material body in conjunction with the laws of God in order to live happily in this material world and to attain the goal of life, pure God consciousness.

This does not mean. however, that people in the Vedic ages had inferior material knowledge. Unlike our modern society, with its inductive attempts to gain knowledge. Vedic society derived highly developed knowledge from a perfect source: the Vedic scriptures, which emanate from God Himself. In this ancient literature we find descriptions of things modern man prides himself on having invented only recently: nuclear technology, airplanes, and space travel, to name a few.

In Vedic society boys from the age of five would receive their education from a spiritual master, or guru. They would live in his residence, called an ashrama, strictly observe celibacy and sense control, and serve him with humility and dedication. The guru would teach them according to their natural inclination, or varna. At age twenty-five the student could enter the householder ashrama. Girls would be educated by their parents and live at home up to the time of their marriage.


The grihastha ashrama is married life. the second quarter of life. In family life there is the natural tendency to accumulate money and acquire material objects. All four ashramas are for spiritual advancement, but only the grihastha ashrama allows for making money. Therefore, the entire Vedic society was maintained by the householder ashrama.

This may seem unfair to us today. Everyone wants to acquire as much as possible and not have to share it with others. But the Vedic system counteracts this materialistic tendency by establishing charity as the religious duty of the householder. For example, before taking his meal, the grihastha was supposed to step into the street and call out loudly three times: “If anyone is hungry, he should come and eat in my house.” Only then would he and his family eat.

The grihastha understood that charity to saintly persons is not a liability but an asset in one’s spiritual account. In Vedic society brahmacharis and sannyasis used to beg from the householders. Begging helped the brahmacharis and sannyasis culture humility and enabled the grihastha to use some of their money for a spiritual cause.

The householder benefited by the association of saintly persons because he received valuable spiritual instructions from them. He knew that a society without holy men and God conscious preachers, without charity and sacrifices, is a hellish situation.


The stage of retirement from family life is called vanaprastha. It is the third quarter of life. Modem society postulates the goals of life as wealth, fame, beauty, sense gratification, ample opportunity for sex, and so on. Consequently, people often continue trying to attain these things until they die. Politicians cling to their power even when they’re senile or invalid. Dying businessmen pray to their doctors to prolong their life just a little so that they can finish some business. Aging film stars get face lifts in a vain attempt to trick nature.

Vedic society was based on the understanding that the spirit soul is covered by a temporary body subject to birth, old age, disease, and death, and that the soul is the real life—eternal, distinct from matter, and full of knowledge and happiness. The body, along with all material attributes like fame, wealth, and beauty, will perish sooner or later.

When the householder reached age fifty, he would enter the vanaprastha order, giving up his sexual relationship with his wife and gradually retiring from business and family life. He would travel to places of pilgrimage, often accompanied by his wife, and devote more time to spiritual practices, such as reading the holy scriptures and meditation.

Instead of increasing his attachment to matter at the end of life, he would gradually detach himself from worldly affairs. He knew that material accomplishments have no value at the time of death. When the soul transmigrates into another body, all assets like cars or bank accounts have to be left behind. A man is born without a penny, and he has to leave this world in the same condition. At death the only useful asset is knowledge of one’s true self and of one’s relationship with God. With this objective the retired householder would prepare himself for the final stage of life.


The renounced order, sannyasa. is the last stage of life. In Vedic society it was entirely reserved for spiritual advancement The sannyasi would leave his family in order to give up any attachment to his wife and children. He would travel without any possessions, without any insurance plan or material security, and simply depend on Krishna. His only business was to become Krishna conscious and convey his realizations to others.

The sannyasis were the spiritual leaders of society. They lived by the charity of the householders, and anyone would be honored and happy to receive sannyasis in his house, for their presence afforded an opportunity to hear realized transcendental knowledge.

The Vedic literature states that charity given to a qualified brahmana is returned a thousand times in the next life. and charity given to a fully realized devotee is returned by unlimited multiplication. And we find the following statement regarding the benefit of associating with saintly persons: “The verdict of all revealed scriptures is that by even a moment’s association with a pure devotee, one can attain all success.”

By their preaching, sannyasis created a potent spiritual atmosphere. Their very presence reminded the attached householders that they too would one day have to renounce their possessions—either voluntarily or at death—and that they had better prepare for this ultimate test.

Vedic society did not see life as a one-time event but as a continuous cycle. Preparation for the next life and worship of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Lord Krishna, were essential ingredients of social life. Simple living and high thinking enabled people to concentrate on their long-term goal of spiritual perfection and God consciousness.

Today’s materialistic society is devoted exclusively to the pursuit of short-term goals. God consciousness is thought of as impractical, outdated, unrealistic, or non- progressive. But this kind of thinking has stripped people’s lives of meaning and lasting values. It has created an atmosphere of anxiety, because people have nothing to live for. Society has lost its soul.

Materialistic persons desperately try to prepare for any conceivable problem or calamity. But no one is preparing for the one disaster that’s sure to strike—death. Spiritual knowledge means to understand that death is not the end of all our efforts. but the final exam of one lifetime, which determines our next destination.

Spiritual culture is not a matter of East or West Indian or American. It is the eternal right of every human being, for it leads to the perfection of life. So modern life is certainly a different culture from the Vedic one. But must we follow the culture in which we were born and raised if it is entirely opposed to the progressive values of life?’

Materialistic values, even if they seem progressive, accomplish only one thing: the endless repetition of birth, old age, disease, and death. The Vedic literature tells us that all activities that do not provoke an attraction for the Personality of Godhead are nothing but a waste of time, because they obstruct us from attaining our spiritual destination.

The Srimad-Bhagavatam (1.2.10) states:

Life’s desires should never be directed toward sense gratification. One should desire only a healthy life, or self-preservation. since a human being is meant for inquiry about the Absolute Truth. Nothing else should be the goal of one’s works.

Mismanagement By Rascals

Srila Prabhupada: People are not bad. I have seen. They are very nice. The government—the rascals. A few men who are controlling the government—they are all rogues and thieves. Everywhere the masses are innocent. These rascals have misled them. In India, in Russia, I have seen. The mass of people—they are very nice.

Andha yathandhair upaniyamanah: blind leaders, leading the blind populace into the ditch. The ordinary people are innocent. For instance, the India-Pakistan war happened due to these politicians. The Hindus, the Muslims—they are innocent. They don’t fight. These politicians engage them to fight artificially for their political ambition. The wars declared nowadays are on account of these rascal politicians. The people do not want it.

Disciple: Srila Prabhupada, it seems the politicians want to create scarcity artificially in some areas. But isn’t it true that crops can be grown anywhere in the world?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes. If crops did not grow anywhere in the world, then what would be the value of nature’s arrangement?

Disciple: Well, for example, there are some parts of India that are too dry to cultivate the ground.

Srila Prabhupada: “Dry” means there is no rain. If nature likes, there can be profuse rain. That is nature’s arrangement. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gita. Parjanyad anna-sambhavah. Parjanyat: you must have sufficient rain.

And for having sufficient rain, you must execute yajna, or sacrifice. Yajnad bhavati parjanyah. So these leaders are now becoming rascals. They are not performing yajnas. They are opening slaughterhouses. How will there be rain? Instead of performing yajnas, they are opening big, big slaughterhouses.

Disciple: Srila Prabhupada, now in many parts of the world, the desert area is increasing.

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, the desert area will increase.

Disciple: So then, isn’t it true that under present conditions, crops may not grow in every part of the world—and that it’s necessary to transport food? At least for the time being, we don’t have the possibility of growing food anywhere and everywhere. So some transportation of food is required.

Srila Prabhupada: What will be the use of transportation as the production of food decreases? If there is decreasing hope of producing food grains, then what will be the use of transportation?

Disciple: Well, in some areas there still is hope of producing.

Srila Prabhupada: If somewhere crops are produced, then in another place they can also be produced. You must perform yajna—sankirtana-yajna, the chanting of the Lord’s holy names. Then you will get enough food. Yajnad bhavati parjanyah, parjanyad anna- sambhavah, annad bhavanti bhutani.

So in Switzerland are there many slaughterhouses?

Disciple: Some time ago, Srila Prabhupada, I read in the newspaper that they had so much milk and so much butter that the government proposal was to kill the cows.

Srila Prabhupada: “Kill the animals.” Oh, just see. They will not give the milk and butter to others.

Disciple: The farmers were complaining that their prices weren’t high enough, because there was so much milk.

Srila Prabhupada: Their criterion is price—not that the goods are required. They want money for purchasing wine. This is the difficulty. They are not satisfied simply by eating sufficiently. They want money for women and wine. This is their philosophy.

Disciple: In the United States, Srila Prabhupada, they had that same problem. The farmers felt they were not getting a big enough price.

Srila Prabhupada: So if they had sense, they would export to where there is necessity of this milk, butter, grain. Then the world would be happy.

Disciple: That was my question. If there is necessity for exporting, then is there necessity for maintaining ships and planes and trains and electrical dynamos and so forth?

Srila Prabhupada: No. The point is that if in one place you can produce food grains, butter, and milk, then why can you not produce these things in another place? That is my point. The land is everywhere the same.

Now, here in Europe and America, there is enough production because the population is less. America is larger than India and has much less population. Therefore you find excess. You see? Also, India is not fully producing, not utilizing all the land.

Disciple: Srila Prabhupada, if the people here in the West are so sinful, how is it that they have so much facility and comfort? Apparently, all of that will go away soon. Very soon.

Srila Prabhupada: Yes. Yes. As the people increase their sinful activities, this facility and comfort will be taken away.

Therefore we propose that “Everything belongs to Krishna, and we are all sons of Krishna. Just cooperate in Krishna consciousness. Then the whole world will be happy.”

This is our proposal. “Why do you think, ‘It is American,’ ‘It is Swiss,’ ‘It is Indian’? Everything belongs to Krishna. Let us become obedient to Krishna, and because we are sons of Krishna, let us enjoy the property of Krishna. Immediately there will be happiness.”

I have several times said that all over the world, people can produce so much foodstuff that ten times the present population can be fed. Ten times. In Africa, in Australia, and even in America, there is so much prospect of producing additional food.

But they will not cooperate. They will go on killing the animals. They will throw the grain into the sea and claim, “It is our land—so this grain is our property to dispose of as we like.” Rascal civilization.

(continued in the next issue)

On Social Revolution

Srila Prabhupada: All over the world, or anywhere in the world, you can make this experiment, just as we are doing. Live very simply, be self-sufficient; get your necessities not from factories but from the farmland. And glorify God’s holy names.

In this industrial set-up, capitalist or communist, only a few big men can be happy—so-called happy—at the expense of the other people. And because the others are being exploited or simply left unemployed by this corrupt few, the others also become corrupt. They try to avoid all work and sit idly. Or else they do not work honestly. And so many other things.

So the only remedy is that everyone should live naturally and chant God’s holy names. Become God conscious. This remedy is simple, and here you can see some of the results. My young European and American students—they had been addicted to drugs and drinking and smoking and so many other modern bad habits. But now, just see how sober they are and how they are glorifying the Lord’s holy names.

You can change the world and make everything all right, provided you take this instruction. There is no other remedy. If you choose not to listen, what can be done? The remedy—the right medicine—is there. But if you don’t take the medicine, how will the disease be cured?

W.H.O. member: You referred earlier to the unfortunate departure of villagers to the city. You pointed out that in city life, the villagers become factory workers, and then so many evils follow. And you suggested as a solution that if we live in the villages and work the land for a mere three months, we’ll have food to eat for the whole year.

But I’d like to point out that there is such a vast amount of unemployment in our towns and villages. Many people there are feeling doomed. They cannot produce enough food for themselves, because they do not have access to the land. The mercantile people use it for their own purposes. And this is why so many of the ordinary people are unemployed. This is why they go into the cities. It is not necessarily that “the good life” in the city attracts them, but that they don’t have access to the land. The land is not used by the mercantile group, and the ordinary people are not able to live in the villages as free men and grow enough food for themselves.

Now, the mercantile group are exploiting. They are exploiting. So unless there is some kind of revolution by which you can curb the power of this mercantile group, how can you hope that someday people will be able to live in their villages and grow their own food on the land?

Srila Prabhupada: The thing is, the government has the duty to see that nobody is unemployed. That is good government.

In the Vedic system, society has four natural groupings. The brahmanas, or thoughtful group, instruct and advise. The kshatriyas, or dynamic group, protect and organize. Then the vaishyas, or mercantile group, look after the land and cows and see to food production. And the shudras, or laboring group, assist the other groups.

Now, this means that the government should be composed of dynamic kshatriyas, who will protect everyone else and make sure the various groupings are doing their duties. The government has to see that everyone is properly employed. Then the whole problem of unemployment will be solved.

W.H.O. member: But at present the mercantile group are also in the government. In fact, they are entrenched. They have a very strong voice in the government, and in many instances they are outright officials in the government.

Srila Prabhupada: No—that means bad government.

W.H.O. member: Yes, that is … that is true.

Srila Prabhupada: That is bad government. The mercantile group should have nothing to do with the government. Otherwise, how can the government see—with no ulterior motives—about everyone’s employment?

The government should encourage the mercantile group to use their ingenuity freely, but not to devise unnatural industries that come and go and leave people unemployed. The government has to see that everyone is properly employed.

W.H.O. member: That’s what I am looking forward to—the day when the Krishna consciousness movement can become a real revolutionary movement that will change the face of society.

Srila Prabhupada: Yes. I think it will bring revolution, because the American and European people are taking it to heart. I have introduced it to them, and they’re very intelligent—they take everything very seriously.

We have been working only a few years, and yet we have spread this movement all over the world. If people take it seriously, it will go on, and there will be revolution. Because we are not working whimsically, capriciously. We are taking authoritative direction from the shastra, the scripture. There is so much information here. People can read all these books and get information. If they take it seriously, it will bring revolution.

On the Dis-United Nations

This conversation between His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada and Mr. P. Sharma, a former United Nations worker, took place in Paris some eight years ago.

Srila Prabhupada: Suppose I ask the United Nations, as an organization, to explain the purpose of this cosmic manifestation. I am created a man, another is created an elephant, and another is created an ant. Why is this? The sun is rising on time, the moon is rising on time, seasons are changing. What is the purpose behind all this?

Mr. Sharma: I think the United Nations would be at a loss to tell you.

Srila Prabhupada: So, people have become very dull in spite of their so-called education.

Mr. Sharma: Oh, yes. Education today is merely book knowledge.

Srila Prabhupada: Such so-called knowledge is described in Srimad-Bhagavatam as simply a waste of time. Although a person may execute his duties perfectly, if he doesn’t understand the purpose of creation—if he doesn’t awaken his Krishna consciousness—then whatever he has done is simply a waste of time. So our point is that the United Nations is only wasting time.

Even from the practical point of view, they are unable to accomplish anything. The original idea was to stop war. But there have been so many wars, and they cannot stop them. They call themselves the United Nations, but actually they are becoming disunited more and more. According to the Bhagavad-gita, if they actually want peace they must know that Lord Krishna (the Supreme Personality of Godhead) is the supreme enjoyer (bhokta), that He is the supreme proprietor (sarva-loka-maheshvaram), and that He is everyone’s friend (suhridam sarva-bhutanam). When they know this, Krishna says, then there will be peace. Otherwise, their big conferences in big offices will never be successful.

Mr. Sharma: That means everything belongs to God. That’s the one fact they want to avoid.

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, that is their nonsense. The United Nations is simply an association of the cheaters and the cheated. Someone wants to cheat, and someone is being cheated. That is our opinion. So how can an association of cheaters and cheated do any good for human society? They are cheaters. They do not know how to attain peace, but they are claiming that they will bring peace to the world. Therefore they are cheaters.

Mr. Sharma: Well, many people will say that the only things that matter are those that can be rationally explained. Anything else is beyond reason—

Srila Prabhupada: But our argument is quite reasonable. Everything in this room has been created, Isn’t that so?

Mr. Sharma: Yes.

Srila Prabhupada: The table has been created, the light has been created—everything has been created by someone. So how can you deny the fact that someone has created the whole universe? If you say it has come about automatically, that is rascaldom. Someone has created it. But who is that someone? We are not the creators. So we can understand that someone else has created this world. And then we have to ask. Who is the proprietor? Shall I be the proprietor or shall the creator be the proprietor?

Mr. Sharma: The creator, of course.

Srila Prabhupada: So why are they claiming, “This is my country”?

Mr. Sharma: Are you saying that the United States, for instance, doesn’t belong to the Americans?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes. It doesn’t belong to them. Yet these rascals are claiming, “This is mine. This is my flag.” Therefore, they are all cheaters. And they are combining and trying to cheat others. The Americans are thinking, “How can I cheat the Russians?” And the Russians are thinking, “How can I cheat the Americans?” Is that civilization—to become cheaters and waste time in so-called conferences? Is that civilization?

Mr. Sharma: No, not at all.

Srila Prabhupada: In America they cheated the red Indians. They got the land, and now they are claiming, “It is mine.” Well, where did you get this land? You cheated the red Indians, and now you claim it is your land. All over the world this is going on. Napoleon thought, “France is mine.” So, France is there, but where is Napoleon? Where is he living now? In France or in hell or in heaven? There are so many places and so many forms of life. In this body, in this life, I may be working as a nationalist—as a Napoleon or as a Gandhi or as someone fighting in the United Nations. But as soon as this body is finished, I’ll get another body. So the whole duration of my previous life is simply wasted.

Mr. Sharma: I see …

Srila Prabhupada: Simply wasted. They are simply wasting time. They don’t have perfect knowledge—simply some Utopian ideas. And they are passing as advanced in civilization. They should know what the purpose of life is—what our relationship is with this cosmic manifestation. There must be a creator. So who is that creator? What is my relationship with Him? But they are neglecting all these things and still passing as world leaders.

Mr. Sharma: That’s the worst kind of government. It seems that their standard is just as you’ve said: every nation for itself.

Srila Prabhupada: But a human being can get out of this illusion. There is sufficient knowledge, especially in the Vedic literature. So why don’t they take advantage of this knowledge and make their lives successful? That is my proposal. We are spreading this Krishna consciousness movement only for this purpose. These people are missing the point and unnecessarily wasting their lives in illusion. So we are trying to save them—that is our Krishna consciousness movement.